I got an email the other day from a delightful Penelope named Karen. She’s got a situation brewing and needs some feedback from the Penelope Community.
Here’s what Karen says:
“I have a family member whom I love dearly and with whom I’m very close, but who is also a little bit on the sensitive side. He often visits my home and always insists on helping around the house… sounds nice, right? Except, he doesn’t do things the way I would and it drives me batty. If I make dinner, no amount of “oh, no, don’t worry about the dishes I’ll get them later” will stop him. He insists on doing them… badly.
I know I’m a total nut about how dishes are done, which is why I never ask anyone else to do them. Also, I’m very very, very specific about where and how things are put away. Again, I know that this is all just a quirk of mine and that other people aren’t wrong to put a wire whisk away still damp (mine is silicone, it’s not going to rust, but I Just Do Not Like It.).
After this family member has been to my house, I spend the next week searching for things that are in the wrong place and re-washing fry pans that haven’t had the toothpick treatment (you know, where you dig into the rivets with a toothpick to get the gunk out?).
And to be totally honest, even if he did all these tasks up to my totally wacky standards, I still wouldn’t want the help. I like cleaning my kitchen. It’s my time to relax and gather my thoughts at the end of the day. I like to putter and straighten. Trying to explain that to non-Penelopes is almost impossible. He thinks I’m just being “nice” or being a “good hostess”, but the truth is, if he doesn’t get the heck out of my kitchen I may have to move out of state!
So, how does a Penelope politely get a beloved, helpful, not-quite-Penelope (or should that be Percival??) out of my kitchen without hurting his feelings??”
Here’s my answer:
Hi Karen,
I think there are two possible approaches to this: you could opt to go the easier route and just give your family member different things to do while you clean up the kitchen. He could sweep or dry dishes. Easy stuff.
But, I don’t think that truly gets to the heart of your situation. I think you’re dealing with a deeper, more emotional issue. You’re telling him how you feel and he’s not listening. He’s certainly well-intentioned, but he’s not respecting you. He’s putting his need to help ahead of your happiness.
You have every right to say, nicely but oh-so-clearly, that this will not continue. That you fully understand the sweet, helpful place from which he’s coming, but you like doing things your way and you actually like cleaning and you’re going to do this yourself.
If he loves you like he says he does, he’ll respect this quirk of yours. You could even tell him you’re a Penelope and that you can’t help it – it’s your nature. Hey, refer him to our website, so he can see what he’s dealing with!
The point is, this is your kitchen and your domain. You make the rules. But, communicated lovingly, I think this can be handled with minimal emotional distress.
Don’t worry, Karen. You’ve got thousands of Penelopes standing in support.
Penelopes: weigh in with your thoughts in the comments. Karen and I really want to know what you think!
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{ 33 comments… read them below or add one }
I too have this problem when I have guests over for dinner parties. I tell everyone very nicely that I like to do things my way in my kitchen and it would be doing me a favor to let me cook and clean the way I like to do it. It has become a loving joke that everyone gets out of the kitchen so that I can clean it without assistance. I agree that if this family member loves you he will gladly respect your wishes in your domain(kitchen). Honesty with politeness is always the best policy. Good luck Karen. Happy Cleaning!!
Oh this made me chuckle, in the most supportive way, I might add. I can’t bear people ‘helping’ me in the kitchen because their washing up is sloppy, they don’t rinse, they put things back in the wrong place with handles the wrong way round….and so on. I’d be up front, and make it quite clear the kitchen is your domain, and though you appreciate the offer of help, you really enjoy looking after your guests, and doing the work in the kitchen and that’s how you want it. Full stop. Tell him it would make your day if he went and sat on the sofa and relaxed with a book! Good luck!
Hi Karen (and Penelope),
Could you just tell him that you’d rather not clean up right now — let’s sit and talk or just hang out? And then clean up after he leaves? That’s what I do when I have company, not because I’m picky about how they do things, but because I truly don’t feel like cleaning up and would rather sit and chat. But maybe that tactic could work for you — I’ve never had anybody insist on cleaning if I myself wasn’t cleaning up. Good luck!
Oh, this happens to me all the time! My biggest, fiercest pet peeve is not being able to find something I need in MY kitchen. One way I’ve gotten around this is to man my station at the sink before anyone else can after dinner so I can get the dishes taken care of. If someone volunteers to “help”, I ask them to empty the dishwasher. This works because like a good little Penelope, I’ve labeled the inside of each shelf, cabinet, etc. with what goes where. (I heart my label maker!) Each label is very specific, and, yes, I’ve gotten a LOT of ribbing about it from my in-laws, but hey: I know where my garlic press is at all times!
What a friend of mine does might help you. She lets people know that when they come to her house for dinner she does not want them to help her in the kitchen with clean up, and that when she goes to their house she will not be helping with cleaning up. I like the idea of just sitting and chatting, too.
Direct and nice is always best if you’re frustrated by getting “help” from others. You can’t control how anyone is going to react/respond, but if you do it nicely, that’s the best you can do.
For me, “I like doing it my way,” and “really, I ENJOY cleaning up,” and “no thanks, you just sit down and relax” never did work. After years of clandestine re-scrubbing, I snapped, yelling, “Look, I AM CRAZY. Not doing this myself makes me twitch. Just leave it alone!” Luckily, my roommates thought I was being funny–and they did get the point. It turns out that phase is effective even without the furious screaming, which makes me think that any excuse other than sheer insanity must sound like you’re just trying to be polite.
Are you sure you’re communicating clearly with him? If you love him dearly but are tense about what he puts you through you might be trying to be nice and say things like “oh, no, don’t worry about the dishes – I’ll get them later” when it might be more helpful and open to say “I love you and appreciate the offer but I’m a nut about my kitchen and actually love the time I spend cleaning up by myself – and then I can get the kitchen just the way I like it. How about if you read to the kids/walk around the block with me/give me your opinion on something (etc., etc.) instead?”
Loving all these comments!
@Belle: your comment almost had me spitting coffee on my computer. So funny because it rang so true to me.
Oh, this all made me laugh so hard: my sister does not want anyone messing in her kitchen. The rest of us have learned that when she says ‘I’LL do it, GO away!” we should pour ourselves a glass of wine and go away. But when she has other relatives staying who don’t listen when she says “get the heck out of my kitchen and leave me alone for awhile” we hear about it for ages…if we are there, we try to get them out of the room, but some folks just won’t hear it. Some won’t listen no matter how direct the message is. At our house, my husband doesn’t like folks cleaning up after a dinner party and I’ve learned that if I tell them he wants to handle it and I stay seated at the table, it usually works.
Karen,
If this person is visiting for a short period of time, go out to eat! Let him treat once (he should anyhow as a grateful guest!) or twice. If he’s there for a while, make it very simple food and use paper plates!
In desperation, you might just clear a spot on the counter/island/work area and tell him to go ahead and put the dried dishes/dishes he’s cleared off the table there and you’ll put them away or do them later…you’d MUCH rather spend the time talking with him.
If push comes to shove, tell him you love him but unless he stays out of your kitchen he can’t come back! Go visit HIM and mess up HIS kitchen!
Holy Crazy Clean Kitchen….I deal with this all the time. I am known in my family for having fun, crazy family dinners…..and it is a riot! I just let people know that if anyone tries to help me in the kitchen….I will assume that they would like to help me pick up dog poopie and clean out the litter box as well (which I clean twice a day!). Let me tell you-I am known as the “abrasive, loud and outspoken” one in the family. I am a full time actress, so I guess my family expects my outbursts…and anytime I mentioned the clean up of pet poopies….they back off. It’s a family joke….we are all so weird…..but we all have our gifts and we love each other like crazy!!
Call me crazy but honestly, I consider letting other people help with the cleaning to be part of being a good hostess. Yes, my insides cringe when I see things put back incorrectly but it is so important to me that people feel at peace in my home. They can’t if they are walking on eggshells in my kitchen. For many people, helping with the clean-up makes them feel a part of things. I don’t want to take this away from them simply because I am a little (okay, maybe more than a little) neurotic. But as soon as they leave, I take my hour to putter around the kitchen and clean what has been “cleaned”. It’s a mental choice I’ve made but for me, it’s been the right one.
Interesting responses, and I disagree with most of you. The helping in the kitchen isnt the issue, the issues are Karen has organization and control issues, plus jerkwad family member doesn’t listen.
Say very firmly and fondly, I really apreciate the offer, I do, however I have a thing about where stuff goes, call it quirky if you will, and I need to do it myself. Thanks so much for offering to help, maybe you could clear dishes or pour coffee for the other guests.
If he continues, sit him down and have the robust conversation – my house, my rules, and you are getting in my way. Back off!
I love the suggestion of what other things they could do to feel helpful. In my house it’s usually “please spend some time petting the dogs, they love it so and never seem to get enough with all of us so busy”. Or I suggest one of my kids show Mr. So-and-So their new/favorite book and ask them to read it. It makes my kids feel special and gets the guest out of the living room.
First- I don’t like help in the kitchen either. That said, sometimes you have to decide what is most important to you; getting things done your way or giving him the gift of letting him help.
Maybe you need to leave the mess for later. Who wants to sit around and feel out of place while someone else does the work? That’s no fun and makes you feel inept and useless. Sit down, enjoy the time with him and do it later. Show him with your actions not just your words that you would really rather spend the time with him than cleaning up right then.
Belle – your comment was HILAROIUS!
I have to say that I no longer feel like the most anal-retentive person in the world after reading your posts! Sure, it’s annoying when guests don’t clean things to your standard, but it’s not a huge hardship to go back over a few things with food still on them. At the end of the day I would never start clean-up while my guests were still there, I always tell them to leave it and I take care of it after they’ve left.
Karen, I never thought I would say this, but I think you need to let go a little bit! There’s absolutely no reason to get all tense and anxious about something which is easily fixed, surely your relationship is the most important thing here? I would steer clear of the clean-up until he goes home, as said, but I guess it’s a bit like with children – you can’t be precious about everything or you’ll have a nervous breakdown!
Good luck!
I’ve heard it said that the things that make us the craziest are the things that show us what lessons we need to learn on this journey. The question is not how you can change someone else, but what change might you need to make so that this doesn’t bother you?
I thought I was going to be the lone voice of discord, but I see Legally Pink’s post and now I don’t feel so crazy for having a completely different opinion. I feel the guests should come first, not the dishes. If I don’t like the way my company cleans, I wait until they leave to do it myself. I wouldn’t leave guests to their own devices while I clean the kitchen like a Penelope. The idea of having people over is to socialize and foster community. Agonizing about the fact someone isn’t using a toothpick to clean out the rivets in a pan (!) seems like a missed opportunity to spend time with someone you love. Just my (clearly in the minority) two cents.
Gulp. I was about to suggest Karen takes a long hard look at herself and tries – just a little at a time – to chill out and allow a gunky frying pan to get put away. But then, if I’m totally honest, that’s not what I do either – I fret and fuss and make my poor guests feel uncomfortable. So I have just 3 suggestions:
- Talk to him before it’s clean up time and he might then see that yo u mean it
- Have a nice glass of wine (or 3) and see if you care about gunky pans after that
- Failing all that, do what my grandmother used to do, and hide the dirty dishes (she put them outside in the coal bunker) until the coast is clear.
I had this same problem with my mother. Of course, all she wanted to do was help, which you wouldn’t think would be that big a deal since she’s a bit of a Penelope herself. But two Penelopes do not make a right! While we’re both very particular, we’re both very different in our pecularities. My pet peeve is things not being put away correctly or for things to not be in their very precise correct place. She cleans to a tee, but nothing goes where it should.
I finally just had to have the talk with her. I told her that while I appreciate her help and thoughtfullness more than she can know, she knows how particular I am about things (it’s how “crazy” I am to the rest of the family, but I’m fine with that!). I would love it if she would do “x” while I put things away. Be that was the dishes while I dry and put away or put away the leftovers for me (they’re easier to reorganize in the fridge after she leaves than the Tupperware in the cabinet) or just keep me company.
Since the family knows how particular I am about my things and my home, she wasn’t offended, just amused.
Your friend’s sensitive nature does not trump your desire for an organized-by-you-and-only-you kitchen. I agree with Meredith and the others that a conversation needs to be had. And I think you need to make a big deal of it. Not as in throwing a fit, with tears streaming down your cheeks wailing, “Why oh Why! Please stay the heck outta my kitchen or I’ll go craaaaaaaaaaaaaazy!” (Although that MIGHT be amusing and would certainly get your point across.)
What I mean is that verbalizing your feelings lightly and in passing don’t seem to be working. I think you need to actually schedule a time to talk to your friend. Give him the old “We need to talk” line. As a guy, that line will strike fear into his heart right away! Then sit down and seriously lay out the situation. Own your part in it. “I know it probably doesn’t make sense to you, but I just can’t relax unless I’m totally in control in the kitchen. I’d enjoy your visits much more if you’d just let it be. etc.”
The formality of the heart to heart will make the seriousness of your point loud and clear. Suggest he take you out to dinner one night on his next visit. Everybody wins!
I’m LOVING the discussion taking place here. This is exactly the kind of issue that I’m glad we can hash out together. The differing points of view make that hashing out more effective.
I also appreciate that everyone’s been so respectful of others in this comment thread. I’ve seen other blogs where this kind of thing could have gotten ugly. Quick.
I love Penelopes.
I do want to add that my impression from Karen was that she did understand that a gathering of family and friends is about being together, not obsessing over frying pans. It was the REPETITION of the behavior of this family member that really got to her.
Just wanted to add that one point of clarification if I hadn’t done so previously.
I am a wannabe Penelope, so I’m coming from a different perspective. I think Karen can only say something if she has a certain type of relationship with this person. For example, my brother loves to give me very short notice when showing up with his family of 7. Yes, I said 7! I finally told him that he better give me more notice, or I’m taking his name off of the list and he won’t be able to get in the gate. I’m a very cheerful person who laughs a lot and I laughed when I told him, but I got my point across. I have lots of relatives who are more distant relations or who are older that I would not be able to pull that on without wrecking the relationship. Karen needs to be very sure that she is willing to live with the possible negative consequences of saying something. Especially if this is a person who has been trained their entire lives that helping in the kitchen is good manners.
To those who suggested leaving the dishes until later – great idea, but I don’t think she’ll be able to do it. It’s what I do, because I’m not a Penelope (sadly). But I don’t know a true Penelope who could have a great time visiting while there’s a mess in the kitchen.
Wow, I thought I was a little obsessive about the kitchen, but I’ve got nothing on Karen! Heaven forbid something gets placed into the wrong drawer!
I think you need some perspective. If your biggest problem with the man is that he insists on helping you clean up, then you should count yourself very lucky. Let him. It is far more offensive to tell him “my rules, my house” or to say that his way isn’t good enough, than to simply re-wash the pan.
If you can’t be gracious enough to accept his help and re-wash the stuff later, then I would suggest that you stop inviting him over for dinner. Have coffee, play cards, go out to eat, but nothing that involves a lot of dishes.
There is wanting things uber-clean and then there is unyielding control issues, and I think this wanders too far into that territory.
First off, I am not a Penelope, nor will I ever be.
It’s possible that her relative could be misinterpreting her refusals for help. When I host a dinner party, I usually tell the guests I’ll take care of the cleanup, and I mean it. However, I would absolutely LOVE having their help–I just feel bad directing people to do this or that when they are guests. If they offer a second time, I usually say, “HECK YEAH!” (because at that point I feel like they really don’t mind helping, and their offers aren’t just good manners) and I point them at the dishwasher, etc.
So. Maybe he thinks she’s doing the obligatory, “oh, no, go on…” because he’s seen hosts and hostesses do that before. Some people don’t WANT to help clean up, and I can tell that when they’re over. So if they make a half-hearted comment, then I’d much rather go chat and ignore the mess.
Anyway, that’s a possibility as to his motivations. I have a Penelope friend who refuses to let anyone help clean up, and honestly, it’s a bit uncomfortable at first. I can tell it makes new guests feel awkward. But she is unable to leave the mess. She stays in the kitchen cleaning while everyone else reluctantly moves to the den. And if someone does insist on staying in there (a newcomer) then I can tell that it makes her tense. I don’t really have a solution for that, because it’s obviously important to her, as it is to Karen, and she can’t help it. But it can make for slightly odd party dynamics until you get used to it.
Good luck Karen!
This hit home for me and I had to laugh in recognition. I think humor is definitely the way to go with this. I often bring up my Penelope personality as an excuse for wanting to do things myself (so they get done *correctly* and laugh it off. ‘Thanks so much Mom for helping me fold the laundry, but the t-shirts have to be folded in thirds and then in half and half again to fit just-so in the drawer’ can become a funny banter where your loved one sits and laughs at your obsessions.
And yes, re-directing is a good idea too. Good luck!
I am SO glad I’m not the only one who is crazy like this!! My in-laws try to “help” everytime they’re in town and something ALWAYS goes wrong. Things go missing because they put them in the wrong spot…
The absolute worst was when MIL “helpfully” washed the dishes and cleared the kitchen while I put the kids to bed (so I couldn’t even stop her.) The next morning, I found that she had thrown away (down the sink) my son’s FIRST LOST TOOTH!! An innocent mistake, but I wanted to scream, “STAY OUT OF MY KITCHEN!!!”
Purchase a very large stainless steel interior dishwasher and convince the guests that I can load and clean much more in this dishwasher than any other. I fill it over capacity and then set the few pots that need soaking in a sink of water and wait to run the dishwasher until later. I sit and enjoy the time with my family and friends. Then when all the ruckus has settle down, I undo the dishwasher, separate the silver plate from the stainless, hand wash the wine glasses and the antique dinnerware. It’s a joy to me to have peace and quiet and carefully tend to the dishes that mean so much to me. They are old friends and family just like those I took time to share memories.
As my sign-in might suggest I’m the Karen that wrote to Meredith and I wanted to thank everyone that commented. To those that think I’m nuts… well,you’re not wrong
I know that all this is just a quirk of mine and I don’t take it particularly seriously. “Oh no, where is my whisk?!!” is not my idea of a national emergency, however all this did point up to me that one reason I am a Penelope is because controlling my environment at home has such a direct effect on my happiness and well being, so I am going to chat with my friend about options (either not helping or just being more willing to learn my systems). Sadly, waiting until he leaves to clean isn’t an option as he comes for 2 or 3 days at a time once or twice a month (it’s a work related trip for him) and while I’ll try for a bit more perspective, letting my dishes sit for 72 hours is just NOT happening.
Thank you all for your input and bless all your (slightly neurotic) Penelope hearts!
Let me say that I’m a total perfectionist and I like everything done my way (in my own house). My mother-in-law lived with us for 4 months over which time she did my laundry wrong (shrunk everything and white clothes came out pink), scraped up my brand new pans (by using metal utensils), gave my kids food we’d never let them eat and a host of other things. I was grumpy for 4 months and my husband and I fought all the time about it. Looking back, it was just ridiculous and selfish of me to be so uptight about this short period in my life and it was not worth the ill feelings between myself and my mother-in-law. Life is about relationships – don’t ruin this one.
My MIL does this to me ALL THE TIME! For a while it worked to just say “leave everything, I’ll take care of it later” but as she becomes more familiar with me and spends more time at our house she dives in and takes over. Last night I had to cut short bedtime story with my toddler because I could hear her in the kitchen doing the dishes. And she doesn’t limit herself there – on several occassions I’ve come home from work to find she’s just dropped round and started doing the ironing for me. I hate it. I know she means well, but I find it very invasive. It makes me resent having her in my home.
I am a true Penelope, so I understand completely. Yes, I realize I have control issues, but I can’t sleep at night if my kitchen is not in order (my order!!!) and clean. Most of my family know not to even try to help in the kitchen. When we have other guests, we clear the table and walk away until later when I can “do it my way”!!! The same goes for my laundry and bathroom and………………just about everything in my house. You are not alone – we just love to clean.